TwoNotes GENOME!!!

[Enchilada Jones]

Let’s see if I have this right.
If you don’t know the input gain the plug was built around then your choice for input gain is one more thing you might be doing wrong in your pursuit to use the plug at its ‘designed to be‘ optimal, state.

When coming from the real amps and cabs side of things plugging into a ‘digital’ amp introduces many new challenges, gain staging signal chain in hardware or software devices, including staging a series of digital components within a single hardware/software device that change individually within different presets, latency concerns and monitoring options, etc.

That is a lot of new skills to be mastered that are now between your instrument cable and the speaker output!
We get overwhelmed with info, good and bad from the internet.
So it would be really nice if the manufacturers would eliminate this part of that challenge that is easily done by publishing a number they already have calculated.
And if the manufacturer believes in their product, publishing their settings would be a cheap investment in customer support that reduces undeserved bad reviews of their product.

 

[dean701]

Let’s see if I have this right.
If you don’t know the input gain the plug was built around then your choice for input gain is one more thing you might be doing wrong in your pursuit to use the plug at its ‘designed to be‘ optimal, state.

When coming from the real amps and cabs side of things plugging into a ‘digital’ amp introduces many new challenges, gain staging signal chain in hardware or software devices, including staging a series of digital components within a single hardware/software device that change individually within different presets, latency concerns and monitoring options, etc.

That is a lot of new skills to be mastered that are now between your instrument cable and the speaker output!
We get overwhelmed with info, good and bad from the internet.
So it would be really nice if the manufacturers would eliminate this part of that challenge that is easily done by publishing a number they already have calculated.
And if the manufacturer believes in their product, publishing their settings would be a cheap investment in customer support that reduces undeserved bad reviews of their product.

true, but it's easier when it's a hardware platform provided by the vendor.
With software where people are using their own DI/audio interface solution, this presents variations.
The excel sheet shown above is an amazing snapshot of how different interfaces have different levels.
I don't think every software vendor is ever going to have all of the interfaces on hand to present recommendations.

Having said that, I'm not one to attempt to match identically from A to B for amps. I'm just looking for something in the same ballpark.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I'm just looking for something in the same ballpark.

Same here. And for that, something like the autotrim function in Guitar Rig is quite nice. Add some common sense to it and it does only get better. Such as:
"Hold on, hitting it with my Supadupahotbucker should rather not result in that much of an input gain reduction (even if autotrim would set it like that, trying to achieve a happy medium) but more gain instead. Ok, so let me just take some of that gain reduction back and bob's my uncle!"
No, that won't be scientifically exact, but as pointed out, many other things are getting in the way of that, too. And leveling is at least something you can freely fool around with (unlike a hardware Hi-Z input).
As said, I think it's all fine to gather all this kind of information - but it might end up not being all that much important, especially as we use to fool around with all sorts of devices between our guitars and amps anyway.

 

[Sedaxel]

Same here. And for that, something like the autotrim function in Guitar Rig is quite nice. Add some common sense to it and it does only get better. Such as:
"Hold on, hitting it with my Supadupahotbucker should rather not result in that much of an input gain reduction (even if autotrim would set it like that, trying to achieve a happy medium) but more gain instead. Ok, so let me just take some of that gain reduction back and bob's my uncle!"
No, that won't be scientifically exact, but as pointed out, many other things are getting in the way of that, too. And leveling is at least something you can freely fool around with (unlike a hardware Hi-Z input).
As said, I think it's all fine to gather all this kind of information - but it might end up not being all that much important, especially as we use to fool around with all sorts of devices between our guitars and amps anyway.

Yeah, for the users that just are OK being in the ballpark, it´s not all that much important.

For those of us who do care about sims accuracy more than just getting in the ballpark, it actually is all that much important.

If an amp sim plugin claims to be accurate (why would they be called amp sims if they don´t chase accuracy?), the only way to ensure the user is getting the full potential of the product is making sure the use conditions are as they should be. And this could be done by providing the reference input level... as simple as that.

Then, you can use it this way, or just by ear. You´re the one who decide, and the one who use the sim as you want. But at least, the information should be provided.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

With vocals are you looking for an accurate gain response from a guitar amplifier?

With guitar it’s slicing the signal in the middle of the signal path with something that will affect level.

With EQ’s and compressors, they are purposefully designed to operate with a wide range of signals, but even still this concept applies to things like 1176’s and other analog modelled stuff. Different companies use different reference levels and if you want to match them 1:1 with the real HW, you have to account for it. But it’s less noticeable than with a guitar amp, because amps just expect an instrument level signal.

Not sure why you’ve brought up grammy’s and going platinum here either but maybe I’m missing something.

The post I replied to ended with make money hence the Grammy/platinum reference.

Would I want a vocal go through a guitar plug? Rarely.

But again when the need to go scientific because guitar is ever so important gets touted that’s one thing.
When it then becomes oh sure ear all everything else I gotta wonder.

 

[dean701]

Same here. And for that, something like the autotrim function in Guitar Rig is quite nice. Add some common sense to it and it does only get better. Such as:
"Hold on, hitting it with my Supadupahotbucker should rather not result in that much of an input gain reduction (even if autotrim would set it like that, trying to achieve a happy medium) but more gain instead. Ok, so let me just take some of that gain reduction back and bob's my uncle!"
No, that won't be scientifically exact, but as pointed out, many other things are getting in the way of that, too. And leveling is at least something you can freely fool around with (unlike a hardware Hi-Z input).
As said, I think it's all fine to gather all this kind of information - but it might end up not being all that much important, especially as we use to fool around with all sorts of devices between our guitars and amps anyway.

i stole this from the other thread but here is an exact case where it does matter. I think it's just good to know that for some that set their interfaces to a maximum setting without clipping, it is not the optimal setting.

 

[yeky83]

Perhaps this thread will be of interest to you - it has official values from most plugin manufacturers (including Native Instruments/Guitar Rig).

Calibrating Input Level for Plugins

Note: Please don't quote this entire post, I may want to edit and add information or clarify things. You can just reply without hitting the reply button, Thank You! My method of calibrating your Audio Interface and Helix Native to match Helix hardware. The result is more accurate gain from...

thegearforum.com

and a table here of common interfaces and many amp sims:



But yeah - the point is, doing it by ear has limited accuracy. If we're getting a response from an official rep, we may as well set the bar a bit higher and remove any ambiguity.

Haven't been following closely, why must one set the interface gain to 0? Why not gain stage properly, then compensate at the plugin with known values? For example with Volt 1 and Mercurial, why would it be less advisable to gain up the interface input by 4.6dB and set the plugin input gain at 0dB provided there is headroom at the interface input to do so?

 

[DLC86]

Haven't been following closely, why must one set the interface gain to 0? Why not gain stage properly, then compensate at the plugin with known values? For example with Volt 1 and Mercurial, why would it be less advisable to gain up the interface input by 4.6dB and set the plugin input gain at 0dB provided there is headroom at the interface input to do so?

I guess it's just to easily find a consistent and repeatable gain setting as most interfaces don't display the actual gain, so the only reference you have is knob position. Obviously it's better to gain stage properly and eventually compensate digitally, but usually that's not so easy to do with the required precision.

PS: also some said in that thread basically that the noise level on a guitar is so much higher than that of the interface that the loss of dynamic range doesn't really matter in most cases, but according to Cliff's latest post (which seems pretty reasonable) it matters indeed.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Haven't been following closely, why must one set the interface gain to 0? Why not gain stage properly, then compensate at the plugin with known values? For example with Volt 1 and Mercurial, why would it be less advisable to gain up the interface input by 4.6dB and set the plugin input gain at 0dB provided there is headroom at the interface input to do so?

Because you'd have to adjust your analog input gain pot for each and every plugin (as the input level they seem to be most happy with is more or less wildly varying). With the interface input level always staying the same, you'd do the plugin input trimming with some gain plugin in front of it and just save it as a channel preset (which most hosts allow for) and never have to readjust your interface input.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

why must one set the interface gain to 0? Why not gain stage properly, then compensate at the plugin with known values? For example with Volt 1 and Mercurial, why would it be less advisable to gain up the interface input by 4.6dB and set the plugin input gain at 0dB provided there is headroom at the interface input to do so?

It doesnt have to be at 0, the main benefit of 0 is that you can get back to it easily. Adjusting the gain by 0.1dB increments isn't easy (especially on lower end devices). If you boost and its not stepped/accurate gain controls, you'd need to measure every time you turn the knob.

Most interfaces have a decent input level with gain at 0, 12dBu is still going to be very close to clipping for humbuckers played loud so there's no need to boost the level more. The more high end converters tend to have more headroom, but they also tend to have stepped digitally controlled gain adjustment so its easy to set however you like.

Regarding signal to noise, its constrained by the noise of the pickups which is way higher than the noisefloor of the converters. boosting by a few dB here or there won't make any meaninful difference, although if you are able to calibrate accurately to a higher level then there's nothing stopping you. Thats actually what I do - my Avalon U5 has stepped gain controls and I just leave it patched to my converters so I can go between different headroom levels accurately and recallably. If I was using something like a UAD Apollo, I'd just leave it at 0 all the time.

 

[dronerstone]

The post I replied to ended with make money hence the Grammy/platinum reference.

That was nothing but a pop-cultural reference. Not to be taken literally.

 

[yeky83]

It doesnt have to be at 0, the main benefit of 0 is that you can get back to it easily. Adjusting the gain by 0.1dB increments isn't easy (especially on lower end devices). If you boost and its not stepped/accurate gain controls, you'd need to measure every time you turn the knob.

Most interfaces have a decent input level with gain at 0, 12dBu is still going to be very close to clipping for humbuckers played loud so there's no need to boost the level more. The more high end converters tend to have more headroom, but they also tend to have stepped digitally controlled gain adjustment so its easy to set however you like.

Regarding signal to noise, its constrained by the noise of the pickups which is way higher than the noisefloor of the converters. boosting by a few dB here or there won't make any meaninful difference, although if you are able to calibrate accurately to a higher level then there's nothing stopping you. Thats actually what I do - my Avalon U5 has stepped gain controls and I just leave it patched to my converters so I can go between different headroom levels accurately and recallably. If I was using something like a UAD Apollo, I'd just leave it at 0 all the time.

What's the AD converter you're using in this video?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

What's the AD converter you're using in this video?

RME ADI-2 PRO FS R BE (it’s a catchy name)

 

[yeky83]

RME ADI-2 PRO FS R BE (it’s a catchy name)

Ah so a very nice one with good SNR specs. Presumably the result of your video would not be the same if you had used a lesser audio interface.

 

[DLC86]

To my surprise I just received an email with a license for Genome, "As a thank you for being a long-standing Two notes customer", but I'm pretty sure I've never bought anything from them in the past. Are they giving these for free to whoever is registered on their website?
In my account I also found 5 DynIR packs, but pretty sure I didn't buy those either, in fact I have 0 orders, the only reason I'm registered on their website is that a few years ago I tried the demo of Torpedo WoS, nothing else.
Very strange... but welcome nonetheless, at least I can try this software with no expirations.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Ah so a very nice one with good SNR specs. Presumably the result of your video would not be the same if you had used a lesser audio interface.

The difference in noise isn’t THAT drastic between converters though, they’d still be well below the noise floor and no matter what the interface, raising the gain will increase the background noise in the pickups. You’d have a hard time finding a converter that so noisy that you’d hear it over a pickup.

I have other (cheaper) interfaces I can demonstrate this with but UAD Apollo is 12.2dBu and so is the Volt. I already clip those with humbuckers so raising the gain higher is just going to clip and be a waste of time. But if you want me to demonstrate it I can

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

That was nothing but a pop-cultural reference. Not to be taken literally.

Fair enough then. But there are those of us who live there :-)

 

[dronerstone]

Fair enough then. But there are those of us who live there :-)

Sshhhh... don't spill the beans. Maybe there's still some folks who haven't realized.

 

[yeky83]

The difference in noise isn’t THAT drastic between converters though, they’d still be well below the noise floor and no matter what the interface, raising the gain will increase the background noise in the pickups. You’d have a hard time finding a converter that so noisy that you’d hear it over a pickup.

I have other (cheaper) interfaces I can demonstrate this with but UAD Apollo is 12.2dBu and so is the Volt. I already clip those with humbuckers so raising the gain higher is just going to clip and be a waste of time. But if you want me to demonstrate it I can

Your video shows the guitar noise dancing around -110dBFS. If you use an audio interface with an instrument input SNR <~110dB (there are many), then I don't think it takes a demonstration to say you'd see and hear the noise floor alongside the pickup noise, no?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Your video shows the guitar noise dancing around -110dBFS. If you use an audio interface with an instrument input SNR <~110dB (there are many), then I don't think it takes a demonstration to say you'd see and hear the noise floor alongside the pickup noise, no?

Yeah, aside from the fact it would require some very specific circumstances, how much of an issue is this really going to present? A couple of dB of noise in gaps? IMO having an amplifier that behaves more like the real amp is a better thing to worry about.

It first takes someone recording a quiet guitar, through noisy converters at low gain (with room to be able to boost more than just a few dB to get an appreciable benefit). And to hear it, they'd need to be playing a gained out tone.



There's a quick video at the sort of differences we're talking about. Telecaster with single coils going through a gainy rectifier plugin. RTA is after the amp. At some points I'm just shifting my body around so the pickups are getting different amounts of interference, at other points I'm changing converters and input levels. At some points its 20.4dBu, at others its 2dBu and anywhere in between.

Just for context, here's the same DI's reamped through a real dual rectifier:



Honestly just feels like a waste of time worrying about to me. Moving my body 2º makes a bigger difference to the noise.