Line 6's stance on profiling

[Digital Igloo]

I've switched to Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer, coz f**k Adobe - mostly.

I use Substance3D quite a lot, and Adobe acquired them through necrotic means last year, and there isn't really anything else that gives you the breadth of stuff. So I have to use that. Le sigh.

Rest of the time it is Balsamiq Mockups (good for putting quick stuff together), Sketch, and Figma.

I take it you've see this then?

I'm kinda stuck in Adobe land because that's what YGG uses, but yeah, there's a ton of great stuff out there.

Dirty, dirty secret: I do my UX mockups (for showing rough workflows to the team) with Apple Keynote. It takes and places vector art really well and I can place and map 200+ slides/states in an afternoon. Of course no one else can run it unless they know the hit points (and I end up forgetting them myself), but it's super fast and easy.

Yeah, I should finally learn Figma or XD.

But the thing i asked ( to anyone) is it okey to make 1:1 copys of amps and effects ? Is this not a bit of copying `stuff` and using there `name` to sell products ?

I responded to your question, but if someone's trying to conflate two very different things, digital pianos and drum machines can suddenly begin to appear unethical too.

 

[Orvillain]

I take it you've see this then?

I'm kinda stuck in Adobe land because that's what YGG uses, but yeah, there's a ton of great stuff out there.

Dirty, dirty secret: I do my UX mockups (for showing rough workflows to the team) with Apple Keynote. It takes and places vector art really well and I can place and map 200+ slides/states in an afternoon. Of course no one else can run it unless they know the hit points (and I end up forgetting them myself), but it's super fast and easy.

Yeah, I should finally learn Figma or XD.

I responded to your question, but if someone's trying to conflate two very different things, digital pianos and drum machines can suddenly begin to appear unethical too.

FFS. No, I hadn't seen that until just now! ARRRGGGHHHH!! SOMEONE KILL THE BORGGGG!!!!

 

[Foxmeister]

But the thing i asked ( to anyone) is it okey to make 1:1 copys of amps and effects ? Is this not a bit of copying `stuff` and using there `name` to sell products ?

Most amps and pedals are just variations on circuits that were at one point "copied" from an original design, and very few of the changes made could be considered new inventions, so cannot be patented.

Some amp manufacturers are more than happy for their amps to be represented in modellers because they can actually drive up sales of real amps.

However, a model of an amp is *not* an amp so it cannot be a 1:1 copy.

 

[SeeD]

Ok, I see something is ok to copy, and others are not.
I hope my name did not make Digital Igloo angry for just trying to be a bad guy for just one night. It was fun

 

[Orvillain]

I'm bookmarking this one for future use

 

[SeeD]

Most amps and pedals are just variations on circuits that were at one point "copied" from an original design, and very few of the changes made could be considered new inventions, so cannot be patented.

Some amp manufacturers are more than happy for their amps to be represented in modellers because they can actually drive up sales of real amps.

However, a model of an amp is *not* an amp so it cannot be a 1:1 copy.

I agree

But the company is selling something that is suposed to be a copy of a Friedman, Mesa, Fender.. this is selling the `name` brand`. I think you would agree with this. Our new modeler have our copy of a ... this.. and... this amp, pedal...

Im just pooking some fun in the end, Im not this type of guy

 

[pipelineaudio]

The more tools and approaches the better. Not everyone is a gear head or has or is a great tech.

I think bringing great tone to the more the merrier. I’m not just a player… I’m a listener too.

I think he was making a joke. Nobody is that dumb to actually mean what was claimed there.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Is it OK for a car manufacturer to make a 1:1 copy of the performance envelope of a competitor's car? That's exactly what modeling tries to do (with varying degrees of success). You can't copyright, trademark, or patent a sound. Harley-Davidson actually tried to register the sound of their bikes as a trademark, were challenged in court, and eventually gave up. Whether naming the target of a model is ethical is another question, but there are numerous ways to get around that....

Exactly! That’s why it seemed so weird to me

 

[KingsXJJ]

No. Components in a nonlinear system can have zero tolerance for their values and parameters and still produce nonlinear behavior.

Automating the tweaking process ("profiling," "capturing," or whatever a manufacturer may choose to call it) is still modeling. It can only make use of the available tools within the modeler. If the available tools have limitations - they always do - then an automated process can never get any closer to the target than those limitations allow. Furthermore, there is no way a "black box" process - which is being discussed here - could ever come close to capturing all the behaviors of a tube amp over the range of control settings, input levels and spectral content, and variations in guitar pickup parameters that occur in the real world. Overcoming this limitation need not involve modeling every circuit component in the target amp - I'd wager that nobody goes that far - but it does require modeling various stages in an amplifier and the ways in which those stages interact with each other. Absent the ability to extract signals from intermediate stages in an amplifier - essentially treating each stage as a black box - profiling will always have an element of hit or miss.

Oh ye’ of great vision and little faith. We will get there. I’ve watched this stuff since the ‘80’s. Everything is unfolding as it should while hitting price points.

 

[jay mitchell]

Oh ye’ of great vision and little faith. We will get there. I’ve watched this stuff since the ‘80’s. Everything is unfolding as it should while hitting price points.

What is that even about? It is not responsive to a thing I said in the post you quote. FYI, I've been very much "there" since ca. 2007, and I've been watching this "stuff" since the 1960s.

 

[KingsXJJ]

What is that even about? It is not responsive to a thing I said in the post you quote. FYI, I've been very much "there" since ca. 2007, and I've been watching this "stuff" since the 1960s.

I meant it as a compliment on your comments and an observation that patience usually pays off. Nothing more. I apologize if it came off wrong.

 

[KingsXJJ]

What is that even about? It is not responsive to a thing I said in the post you quote. FYI, I've been very much "there" since ca. 2007, and I've been watching this "stuff" since the 1960s.

I didn’t notice it was you Jay. I’ll be more exact next time.

 

[Whizzinby]

Ok, I see something is ok to copy, and others are not.

The distinction being whether IP was infringed upon in the process. I fully support any company aggressively defending their IP if it was infringed upon. If not, compete.

Being relatively new to modeling the last couple years there does tend to be some romanticism in the space over who did what first, best, etc. Personally, not having that sort of attachment to a company or device I am generally ambivalent to this line of talk. I don’t really care who did what and when, I want to find the best device for my money. So, whether a company was liberal (“Farley”) with their usage of past approaches I’m frankly indifferent, unless IP was infringed upon and the company impacted is aggressively defending it. Otherwise this is a competition for consumer money and the market isn’t going to stand still. As a consumer I don’t want it to either.

As far as profiling is concerned, I think the floodgates have opened. That Which Shall Not Be Named and IK are now both offering it. I’d imagine in the premium tier of devices it will eventually become a ubiquitous feature. Clearly there will be devices that focus on one or the other, but I think at the high end of the market it will be an assumed feature going forward. If all other things are equal, you’d buy a device that could also profile rather than just model. I think that’s just common sense. (Assuming all other aspects are similarly equal)

 

[mbenigni]

That Which Shall Not Be Named and IK are now both offering it.

Hold up. Let's not make "N O W" IK Multimedia's "S O O N".

(Also somewhat concerned with the word "device" being applied to software, but I suppose it's only a matter of time...)

 

[jay mitchell]

I meant it as a compliment on your comments and an observation that patience usually pays off. Nothing more. I apologize if it came off wrong.

Thanks for the clarification. It seemed to me that you somehow had the impression that I have a negative outlook about the prospects for automated captures.

FWIW, I haven't the slightest use for automating the process. My preference is for powerful tools with as many user parameters exposed as possible. I'll happily wade through setting up those tools to get the sounds I'm looking for, using my hearing as the discriminator.

 

[Whizzinby]

Hold up. Let's not make "N O W" IK Multimedia's "S O O N".

(Also somewhat concerned with the word "device" being applied to software, but I suppose it's only a matter of time...)

Let’s not bog ourselves down reading the fine print.

 

[Sleezy E]

I’d imagine in the premium tier of devices it will eventually become a ubiquitous feature.

Won't that be something!?

Then we can all sing kumbaya while pleasantly discussing which little black box has the most feel and/or the bestest toans

 

[Whizzinby]

Won't that be something!?

Then we can all sing kumbaya while pleasantly discussing which little black box has the most feel and/or the bestest toans

It’ll never end, then one of them will bake in guitar/pickup profiling like the SIM1, and that will be a pre-req. Or the next landmark: “Alexa, dial in Back In Black tone, no, make it Running With The Devil”.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Are you they?

 

[Fireproof]

Won't that be something!?

Then we can all sing kumbaya while pleasantly discussing which little black box has the most feel and/or the bestest toans

Or the best touch screen. Or IEC power adapter. Or…