JC solved the problem of too loud amps!!

[JiveTurkey]

I quoted these 3 posts because the second is an answer to the first that I agree with and the third is something that only goes so far.

I have probably spent as much time behind a mixer as I have on stage playing. There is such a thing as an appropriate volume level for the venue you are in. If the amps are on stage there isn't much you can do about it out front. The stage volume has to be balanced or it affects how people perform because they can't hear themselves. Monitors will only get you so far. If there is a volume war going on the stage, the guitar and bass amps will always win. You can only carve out frequencies so much. If the volume is too loud the feedback will start with another frequency after you pull the most offending one down.

A good example of this is a band I used to run sound for had a guitar player that insisted on bringing a 100 watt head and a 4x12 cabinet for playing in smaller venues. I always had to tell him to turn down because I had him all the way out of the mix and he was still too loud out front. If I had brought everything else up, the venue owner would have asked me to turn it down. This also caused his singer to not be able to hear and would sing harder to try to get more volume. One night after the first song, I walked up to the stage and told him that he gets to decide how the band sounded that night. He could either lave his amp turned up and cause his singer to blow her voice out before the end of the night and the audience would only hear his guitar all night or he could turn down and I could make them sound good. He begrudgingly turned down. He had a relative with him that night. After the first set he asked him how they sounded and he said it sounded great. He then walked over and thanked me for making him turn down. I told him that I am a guitar player too and I get liking to get the amp cooking but you just can't do it in that small of a place. He would argue with me before that and tell me his amp had to be that loud to get his tone. This night was kind of the last straw for me. I was tired of the argument and if he had left the amp up I was quitting at the end of the night.

I have coached others in every band I have played in about stage volume. It helps having experience on both sides of the situation. I have had sound guys compliment us for being so easy to mix because we have our stage volume under control.

It's amazing how a simple conversation amongst band members can make for a 1000% better experience for the audience. We play and we do have some volume. But never enough to overpower the PA. That's just dumb.


On the other end of this conversation; I often wonder why a venue wants to hire a band only so they can complain they are too loud. And this is in cases where the musicians aren't thinking they're Richie Blackmore 1976 or wtever and are playing at reasonable levels.

 

[JasonE]

It's amazing how a simple conversation amongst band members can make for a 1000% better experience for the audience. We play and we do have some volume. But never enough to overpower the PA. That's just dumb.


On the other end of this conversation; I often wonder why a venue wants to hire a band only so they can complain they are too loud. And this is in cases where the musicians aren't thinking they're Richie Blackmore 1976 or wtever and are playing at reasonable levels.

Unfortunately, in my area, modelers have had a negative impact on the volume discussions. Once some bands started going with closer to a silent stage the venues liked the lower volume and are now asking more bands to go that route. I have leaned on my pedals for my tones and only need to turn my amp up enough to match the drums. I also tilt my amp back so it is pointing at the back of my head. If I am using an amp that I can't do that with, I try to be mindful of where it is pointing and try not to put anyone in the beam of it. That still works if you keep everything at a similar level.

 

[Life Eats Life]

I was that band Friday night. Small gig in a new venue, unknown PA quality. Both us guitarists decide on tube amps, first time gigging real amps in this project.

We weren’t using big amps - a Budda SD18 and a 2204 clone through an oversized 1x12 cab each. We experienced feedback through large portions of our set. Played great too. We were frustrated to say the least.

Y’all were playing your way outta the mess,
unfortunately the sound guys fingers on the faders
control’s your release of this kick see playing..
ARGH!!!!
What a buzzkill, damn certified C*ck-blocker.
Please keep jammin’ on with your band.
It’s like a bad night that has nothing to do with how
y’all were playing.
Obstacles of performing live entertainment.
The music lives on

 

[la szum]

Unpopular opinion: FOH guy is usually right. Unless you don't want people to hear your vocalist, or for some reason you want their mic to feedback and make the crowd go to the next bar. Then go ahead and crank those amps for the amazing tone that only you will notice.

Eh? I also think many of them are also lazy, and have a set and forget mentality.

You do know you can overcompress a vocal mic and create feedback that way, too,
right?

The Preset FOH Guy or Gal is a thing. Because every band is the same and
so is every vocalist and so is every drummer. Forget EQ'ing or Compressing
a singer differently who uses different mic technique and approach.... because
that is work and I have these great settings that work awesome.

Stage volume wasn't always a massive problem. Sometimes yes. But it is way
overstated compared to the Praise and Worship generation that brought us
stages expected to be silenter than musical theater. Just another Devil to be
cast out of us, and our lives.

 

[la szum]

Old-school opinion:

FOH guy should have a couple paramedic EQs to notch out offending frequencies in monitors and mains to minimize potential feedback. I guess it's becoming a lost art.

Exactly! Just like no two singers are the same. You might have to blow
up a female's voice with some low-end and low-mids, and then you apply
that to a guy and you have a nightmare of howling madness. You can't just
run FOH for 4 bands and expect them to use the settings dialed in for
soundcheck of the primary act/band. But that happens a lot at lower touring
levels. Many of the openers with 30 or 45 minute slots don't even get a soundcheck.

Fire in the hole!

 

[la szum]

It's amazing how a simple conversation amongst band members can make for a 1000% better experience for the audience. We play and we do have some volume. But never enough to overpower the PA. That's just dumb.


On the other end of this conversation; I often wonder why a venue wants to hire a band only so they can complain they are too loud. And this is in cases where the musicians aren't thinking they're Richie Blackmore 1976 or wtever and are playing at reasonable levels.

Yup. We are not talking cranked Plexis and an array of 4 x 12s here.

The band that was too loud in the instance I mentioned was one guitarist
with a 1 x 12 elevated and mic'd. It was a Friedman.

I've been in punk and metal venues in the past with stacks and SVTs and
the stage volume was insane. Feedback? Not an issue. Hearing the Vox?
Again, not an issue.

 

[gearJunkie]

And don't get me started talking about vocalists that choke up on the microphone and cup their hands around the element complaining about feedback. Learn to work a mic. [/rant]

 

[sleewell]

i actually really like how my amp sounds a low volumes. it obviously sounds better louder but its not a situation where it has to be loud to sound good. i trust my vocalist to tell me if the mix is good or if i need to turn up or down bc he moves around a lot and bounces out front during sound check to make sure the mix is good.

 

[Achilles]

Old-school opinion:

FOH guy should have a couple paramedic EQs to notch out offending frequencies.

The POWER of the parametric EQ gets lost on too many people!

 

[spawnofthesith]

I have never once seen a truly "silent stage" and I've never met a sound guy that's trying to push for that, or that can't handle real amps. Some venues I play are probably going to ask you to turn down (even so "turned down" is usually plenty loud) and at plenty of others I've never been asked to turn down, and try to take advantage when we play those spots.

Perhaps related to the fact I am in a biggish city with a solid music scene, but the anecdotes I often see on forums come as a surprise to me , and have never been my personal or observed experience

 

[greatmutah]

So what is the cure or compromise? Every amp needs an attenuator to get the toanz right and not piss-off the sound guys for being too loud?

Events/venues are upgrading and investing more in their own equipment, and that's less equipment the bands have to bring in. Should be a win/win situation, but it's not working out that way it seems.

Something like the Captor X? Reactive load with IR out but an attenuated pass through to the cab/speakers for onstage monitoring?

 

[spawnofthesith]

i actually really like how my amp sounds a low volumes. it obviously sounds better louder but its not a situation where it has to be loud to sound good. i trust my vocalist to tell me if the mix is good or if i need to turn up or down bc he moves around a lot and bounces out front during sound check to make sure the mix is good.

5153 is easily the best sounding at super low volume high gainer I've owned

 

[ragingplatypi]

Watching JNC reminds me of watching tv after school as little kid. There were 10 billion episodes in a season, about 1 out 10 of them were great and the rest were good enough, and you always wound up seeing the same few episodes over and over in reruns. So with JNC I come home every day to another episode, with the same cast of EJ inspired characters, and that rerun episode about how great the HX Stomp is. And honestly, I love it.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Cordy is awesome.

 

[CorrosiveMatter]

I read the title as Jesus Christ fixed too loud amps for you (made you deaf).

 

[GuitarBilly74]

If you have an acoustic drum kit on stage you will never have a silent stage. You can have a drum stage or a band stage. Amps should match the volume of the acoustic drums on stage. Not louder but certainly not quieter either. Shouldn't be hard.

 

[Iron1]

 

[AFKAEjay]

123 Db…what could possibly go wrong
You can hear these guys tinnitus yourself at 100 feet distance..

 

[JasonE]

If you have an acoustic drum kit on stage you will never have a silent stage. You can have a drum stage or a band stage. Amps should match the volume of the acoustic drums on stage. Not louder but certainly not quieter either. Shouldn't be hard.

This is exactly how I have been doing it for years. We put the kick drum in the PA along with a little guitar if needed. The PA is mostly there for the vocals. This is in the smaller places I have typically played in. When we get in a bigger place or outside, things are done differently.

 

[laxu]

The real solution is to stop fucking buying amps designed in the 1950s/1960s!

I can't believe how many people are like "I bought a Deluxe Reverb and it's too loud!" and people go "yeah you just need to spend another grand, buy a Fryette Power Station, then cut the speaker cable, wire a jack and plug to it."

No, you need to stop buying amps that have terrible volume management, whether it's no master volume at all or a hair trigger MV design. And no hardwired speakers, that's just stupid!

Of the amps I've had in over the past 20 years or so:

• Diezel Einstein. Can be turned down quite low and still sounds usable.
• Egnater Tourmaster. Can be power scaled down to 10/25/50W and turned down very low with MV.
• Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL. Power scalable with half power and low voltage modes. Can be turned down to about 90 dB @ 1m with MV on either channel. Use the fx loop return as a second master volume for even lower.
• Victory VC35. Power scalable to 11W and again can be turned as low as you need. Put a compressor up front and increase preamp gain to make it sound and feel pretty much like it does when cranked.
• BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition. Can be turned down to a whisper. MIDI/Remote1-accessible powersoak built in, so you can crank it if you want and get a mouse fart out of it.

I was rocking the BluGuitar yesterday through my 4x10 cab at probably over 100 dB @ 1m volumes, and there was zero powertube distortion in sight but the tones were just bloody glorious, and my tones are basically all about classic Marshall Superlead/JCM800, or Soldano SLO type stuff.

Otherwise the drummer sets the minimum volume level.